Left 4 Dead 2: Elaborate Practical Joke or Shit Pile?

[TerranUp16]

Preview + Vids

It looks significantly worse than L4D (in terms of gameplay AND graphics) and seriously, a sequel ALREADY!? From VALVE OF ALL DEVELOPERS!? If this isn't a practical joke I may well boycott Steam for quite a bit.

[~VanMavus]

Looks real to me.... anyway I can't boycott Steam now I just pre-purchased Prototype.

[TerranUp16]

I continue to be displeased with having paid $45 to get into the Left 4 Dead 2 Beta.

[~VanMavus]

You paid $45.00 to get into the beta? Is it crap as at it looks?

[TerranUp16]

(06-03-2009 02:22 AM)~VanMavus Wrote:  You paid $45.00 to get into the beta? Is it crap as at it looks?

L4D 1 is like the Left 4 Dead 2 Beta was my implication.

Also...

Just Thought I'd Toss This Link Out...

Article Wrote:Shack: When did development on Left 4 Dead 2 start?

Chet Faliszek: Pretty much after Left 4 Dead launched.

One of the other things is.. we've all played [Left 4 Dead] now, we all play it now, we see things like [players] stacking in the corner and stuff, and we want to avoid it.

So you see an issue with the design of your game- what do you do? A) Develop a solution and implement it via a patch, B) Consider the solution too drastic of a gameplay change (not that stopped Valve from doing all they've done to TF2, but Sins of a Solar Empire: Entrenchment is a good example of this) to implement as a direct patch and therefore cobble together a very cheap DLC pack or expansion for those interested in the fix, or C) Utilize your prior mistake(s) to attempt to justify a "sequel" for which you can charge full price and f**k everyone over who bought your admittedly f**ked-up game? Valve chose C.

Also, they admit that they've been working on L4D 2 instead of supporting L4D... Asshats.

Article Wrote:Shack: What price-point should we expect?

Doug Lombardi: This is a full sequel.

Shack: So full price?

Doug Lombardi: Yeah.

Screw that.

[~VanMavus]

Lol. I'll buy it if it looks good. But at the moment... Prototype is like sex on legs.

[Dragonskull]

L4D is probably one of the most crappy games I've seen lately.. that they even thought of making a sequel is appalling if you ask me.

[TerranUp16]

Seen or played? There's a sizable difference... L4D isn't exactly what you'd expect if you only give it a cursory glance. Same for Killing Floor.

[Dragonskull]

Seen someone else play, I mean I didn't even want to try it. I hate the concept of 'sieges' to put a term to it. And those large, fat Pudge-wannabe's (DotA reference) who blind you upon death are simply lame. It works for films, not for games. Well, that's my opinion. Besides, the cover-art makes it look like a game from the 90's ^_^"

[Death]

Quote:Doug Lombardi: We didn't start off saying, "Hey, let's make a sequel for next year." We started off saying, "There's a bunch of really cool ideas. Let's put 'em all up on a whiteboard and figure out what's the best way to put these together and get them out there." And that's really fundamentally how Valve thinks about stuff. It's not like, "Oh, we need a product in this quarter," or whatever.

Bullshit.

[TerranUp16]

(06-04-2009 07:34 PM)Dragonskull Wrote:  Seen someone else play, I mean I didn't even want to try it. I hate the concept of 'sieges' to put a term to it. And those large, fat Pudge-wannabe's (DotA reference) who blind you upon death are simply lame. It works for films, not for games. Well, that's my opinion. Besides, the cover-art makes it look like a game from the 90's ^_^"

Blarg, you're not even getting your facts straight, lol. I may not be happy with what Valve is doing with Left 4 Dead 2 but that does not diminish my designer take on Left 4 Dead as being an excellent game.

"Sieges" are only set pieces of various levels and since the game's launch a patch has been released that allows for melee fatigue- the primary boredom of those encounters as you sat in a corner and meleed are no more. The majority of your time is spent on the move.

And judging it without having played it is rather impossible. The very foundation of the game is co-op. It is by far the best co-op game I have yet played- getting together a group of yourself and three friends makes for an excellent time and experience and really positively impacts the game. Watching someone else play... you don't get that, at all.

As for the Boomer, it does two things- obscures your vision #1 which is actually a bit more of an issue than you make it out to be and #2 it calls an infected horde to the player that has bile on them. That's another pretty major issue for you, particularly when you're having a tough time seeing...

I also presume that you haven't so much as witnessed any Versus action in L4D? Vs. changes the gameplay a ton- a tad ubercompetitive at times but other than that very, very fun. You spoke of really liking PvP and predicting what your opponents are going to do next better than they are, and L4D Vs is pretty much all about that. I'd recommend the game to you on that count alone if it weren't for the existence of L4D 2 as buying L4D at the moment is a rather moot point.

But if Valve does another free weekend you should give it a try. Whether you like it or not, it's one of those games that imo you just have to play because it's worthy of being added to your repertoire of references because, once again, for co-op, thus far nothing else beats it. And the Versus mode is real like dueling co-op and once again, nothing even challenges it there.

That I prefer Killing Floor over Left 4 Dead's Survival Mode doesn't mean much- Killing Floor is just designed better for that. When it comes to L4D's Versus, Killing Floor has no answer and even in terms of co-op, Killing Floor requires co-op and is often more fun than L4D, but as far as the amount of cohesion required, KF doesn't even come close to L4D in that regard. KF does though have a few things that L4D can learn from but the introduction of the Charger in L4D 2 seems to be the biggest lesson that Valve took away from KF and it is indeed the lesson they needed to... but putting it in a "sequel" is stupid... should be integrated into L4D 1 via a patch...

[Dragonskull]

I have to disagree about not having played being a problem on judging it. Usually you get a better impression of how the game is by watching someone who has played it and knows what to do, rather than trying it yourself fora couple hours. At least that's my experience. I didn't have any interest in DotA before I had seen a couple of good clan matches, because after 50 games of spontaneous public games, it seemed pretty straight forward and boring (that's nearly 50h playing opposed to 3h watching).

Well, I shouldn't comment on the co-op, I haven't played it, but I know no better co-op game than DotA. And I haven't seen any of the Versus- what's it about? I certainly hope it's not player-controlled zombies, that'd just blow the cake HAHA.

Never even heard of Killing Floor.

And just for the record, I hate the whole zombie franchise, so I don't think I'd bother to even try it for free.

[TerranUp16]

Versus is where players control the special infected- the Boomer, Hunter, Smoker, and Tank. Sounds simple enough but recall that the whole purpose of special infected is to mess with the Survivors. What effectively occurs is that in order for the Infected team to deal any damage to the Survivor team, the Infected players need to work together (for example, have a Smoker pull a Survivor towards him with his tongue while the Boomer barfs on that player, thus separating the Survivors and bringing a horde of common infected in to make matters worse; if you've got Hunter, have them pounce two of the other Survivors for some additional damage and at least annoyance if not the start of catastrophe). By the same token, Survivors need to work together to counter the efforts of the infected players. It very much becomes a match of coordinated wits between the two sides.

And L4D isn't DotA. It's one of those games that you do actually have to play. Strategy games of all sorts can be watched and you can begin to appreciate them that way but FPS's generally are not that way and L4D in particular.

[Dragonskull]

Heh, I wouldn't call DotA a strategy game - and the same procedure worked for me getting into the UT series. Oh, and as I've stated a lot earlier, DotA is a game you do have to 'play' it's not like everything comes along automatically. Actually, by the sound of it, the co-op part of L4D sounds very much like DotA, but then again- it's merely harass. In DotA you don't work together only to make chaos, you make chaos so that you can inflict damage, confusing/annoying/disorienting the enemy is only a necessity and not the priority.
Hadn't it been for the zombies and the idea of survival, L4D might've been a good game.

[TerranUp16]

You just really don't like zombies, do you? xD

[Dragonskull]

Aye, I guess that's mostly it. xP

[~VanMavus]

None of you probably care enough about L4D2 at the moment to check these out but have a look:

"Trust Us A Little Bit", Valve on L4D2 - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/...ittle-bit/
Exclusive Podcast with Chez Faliszek (L4D2 Guy) - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/...-faliszek/
L4D2: Exclusive RPS Hands on - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/...s-preview/

[TerranUp16]

Already seen and read plenty. I've already talked about the "Trust us" bull**** and Gabe Newell himself actually had the best response to it back from what he said before L4D 1 released:

Gabe Newell Before Left 4 Dead's Release Wrote:One of the things that we're doing is we seem to be in a transition between games as a package product and games more of a service. So if you look at Team Fortress 2, one of things that's really helped grow the community is the continuous updates, where we release new maps, new character classes, new unlockables, new weapons. And we tell the stories about the characters, like the meet the sniper, or meet the sandwich. And that ongoing delivery of content really seems to grow the community.

So each time we've released one of those for Team Fortress 2 we've seen about a 20% increase in the number of people who are playing online. And that number is really important because it determines how many community created maps there are, how many servers are running, and so on. So we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time.

Note to mention his own GDC Keynote...

And the rest... the graphics look like utter crap even compared to L4D and what the Source engine can do, the gameplay looks worse for the wear thanks to the craptastic "new" weapons and the melee weapons, and the new survivors and environments are also extremely meh compared to L4D 1. It's meh across the board really. The only midly interesting bit is the Charger but that would have been more interesting had I not played Killing Floor already. Oh, and the melee weapons might have been more interesting as well. But the melee weapons are simply not enticing to me at all in the context of a Left 4 Dead game. They work in Killing Floor because Killing Floor is a completely different game.

[TerranUp16]

Absolutely Epic, Must-Watch Video Related to All of This

Be sure to turn your sound on as well (it's not so much visual as audio).

Also want to direct your attention to an awesome Steam Community Group to join:

[~VanMavus]

Joined the group (Y). Just past 11,000 members. Wow,

[TerranUp16]

The Group's Manifesto

afternine and L4D 2 Boycott Staff Wrote:We Recognize:

-Valve is a company with financial needs and cannot be expected to survive without the release of new games.

-Judgment cannot be passed on the quality of Left 4 Dead 2 until its release.

-Left 4 Dead was, and is, a quality game which deserves the praise of the entire gaming community.

We Are Committed:

-To holding Valve to its promise of free, continual updates to Left 4 Dead in order to build and sustain the community.

-To keeping the Left 4 Dead community together in order to improve the quality of online gaming.

-To supporting the model of continual updates Valve has set forth with its staple products like Team Fortress 2.

We Believe:

-The release of Left 4 Dead 2 as a stand-alone sequel will split the communities and decrease the quality of multiplayer gaming.

-The announced content of Left 4 Dead 2 does not warrant a stand-alone, full-priced sequel and should instead become updates (free or otherwise) for Left 4 Dead.

-Left 4 Dead has not yet received the support and content which Valve has repeatedly stated will be delivered.

-The release of Left 4 Dead 2 will make Left 4 Dead an obsolete purchase and inferior piece of software after only one year since release.

We Request:

-That Valve honor its commitment to release ongoing periodic content for Left 4 Dead.

-That Left 4 Dead 2 not be released as a stand-alone, full-priced sequel but as either a free update to Left 4 Dead or an expansion with full compatibility with basic Left 4 Dead owners.

-That Left 4 Dead owners be given discounts for Left 4 Dead 2, should it be released as premium content.

Therefore, we - the members of this Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott - promise to abstain from the purchase of Left 4 Dead 2 until our requests are addressed.

Rather well stated and phrased.

Anyway, reasoning for the expansion being acceptable is because what that should force Valve to do is to bring the core updates- the gameplay- into L4D 1 proper while allowing the new maps and weapons to remain aloof for those who want to shell out for it/them. Thus, that wouldn't impact Valve's capability to supply meaningful updates that fulfill their prior promises to the whole L4D community.